False Colony?

[Wandering Man]

Is there such a thing as a false colony of bees?

3Reds and I have kept the nuc in place, next to our other two hives because of the frame feeder with 1:1 sugar syrup in it.  3Reds had poured about a pint of syrup in when we set the nuc down.  Of course, the swarm we caught left.  But I figured I'd leave the nuc there so the other bees would clean out the syrup.

The next days, bees were going in and out.  And the next.  And the next.  Yesterday, I tried to take a peek inside, and was struck with how many bees were in the nuc. I wasn't dressed properly to greet the girls, so I quickly shut the top.  3Reds did the same this afternoon.  It was startling to have the bees start swarming out of the top, so she also shut the top quickly.  I took a closer look just a bit ago.  There are a lot of bees in the box, with a bunch of them clustered on the underside of the inner cover.  I didn't see any comb being produced on the frames that I'd left in there.  There were a bunch of bees crawling in and out of the frame feeder, but there was still a lot of syrup in there.

I put the inner and outer covers back on carefully, then walked around the front to watch.  No bees are bringing in pollen, like in my two established hives.  But there were a few bees coming out, doing what looked like an orientation flight, and then going back in.  There have been a couple of bees on the outside of the hive with their butts in the air, buzzing their wings, like they are sending out signals.

What am I seeing here?

[Perry]

I think you are seeing foragers coming in and loading up. Now, if you saw pollen going in I would get excited. Maybe throw in a frame with some pollen and eggs on it and see what happens?

[riverbee]

you have box with a queen in it?

"bees were going in and out.  And the next.  And the next.  Yesterday, I tried to take a peek inside, and was struck with how many bees were in the nuc. I wasn't dressed properly to greet the girls, so I quickly shut the top.  3Reds did the same this afternoon.  It was startling to have the bees start swarming out of the top, so she also shut the top quickly.  I took a closer look just a bit ago.  There are a lot of bees in the box, with a bunch of them clustered on the underside of the inner cover.  I didn't see any comb being produced on the frames that I'd left in there.  There were a bunch of bees crawling in and out of the frame feeder, but there was still a lot of syrup in there.

I put the inner and outer covers back on carefully, then walked around the front to watch.  No bees are bringing in pollen, like in my two established hives.  But there were a few bees coming out, doing what looked like an orientation flight, and then going back in.  There have been a couple of bees on the outside of the hive with their butts in the air, buzzing their wings, like they are sending out signals."

wm, i forgot what frames do you have in the nuc box?

2. 'swarming out of the top'............were they just flying out or swarming out, there is a difference, and what was their attitude?

3. the bees clustered on the top of the lid, bees at the front with their butts in the air........go in tomorrow, lift the lid, examine it (look for a queen), and see if there is a queen on the underneath side of that lid, or in the nuc.

[Wandering Man]

Inside the box: One frame with foundation, three foundationless frames, and the feeder frame. We are first years without access to drawn comb.

When they flew out, they came for me, but no stings.

I fingered the crowd of bees at the top, and didn't see a queen. But again, I'm not experienced.

[riverbee]

okay, thanks paul.

my guess is there is a queen in the box. she might be on the lid, she might be roaming around the box. if they were clustered on top, she was probably in the middle somewhere. sometimes they are hard to spot.

what is the one frame of foundation? beeswax or plastic, waxed plastic?

[Wandering Man]

I think it was duragilt, waxed plastic.

[Wandering Man]

3Reds just reminded me that we left that little 3X3 piece of comb in the box, too. It's just lying on the bottom board somewhere.

[Perry]

I'll stand by my story, just a collection of foragers that get disturbed and fly off when disturbed, much like robbers.
When I'm extracting, I have a nuc box as a catcher for any stray bees that find their way into the honey house and are escorted out. 
They all end up congregating in the nuc box by the door.

[riverbee]

 "One frame with foundation, three foundationless frames, and the feeder frame."

this is the swarm from the cemetery, where the queen flew off? 

perhaps it is the bees gathering back in the nuc that wm used to gather the swarm. bees remember the last place they were.

foragers will check out empty hives/dead outs near them.  at the end of the day they do go home. 

if there is no queen in the box wm, and the foraging bees are still clustering in the box, i would suggest combine them with another hive. 

EDIT AND ADD:
"there were a few bees coming out, doing what looked like an orientation flight, and then going back in.  There have been a couple of bees on the outside of the hive with their butts in the air, buzzing their wings, like they are sending out signals."

[Wandering Man]

I was at the nuc early this morning when the bees in the two hives were coming and going. I lifted and dropped the outer cover of the nuc. Nothing flew out but puffs of dirt.

Perry's right, just foragers.

[3reds]

Oh well, I was hopefull.  Maybe next time we do this the bees will stay.  That would be so cool!

[Zweefer]

I had that happen last year, and was able to bee line some foragers back to a feral hive ...
Thread is here if interested...

So if you don't know where they are coming from, you may get that hive back after all... 

[Wandering Man]

I peeked inside the nuc this morning.

There is still a tiny cluster of bees on the underside of the inner cover, and a few bees climbing in and out of the feeder (with a little bit of syrup and dead bees).

I am starting to think about splitting my hives.  My queens have a wing cut, so if they decided to swarm, they wouldn't get very far, and it could end up being problematic for the swarm.  I'd like to prevent their attempt, if I could, and so I plan to split.

I still haven't found the source of the bee's pollen, but they have been bringing in a ton of it.  So there may be a nectar flow happening, or at least beginning.

I'm wondering if it would be OK to go ahead and add a frame of brood and a frame of honey to this nuc, that already has a few bees in it.  Would there be fight between these foragers and the new bees I add?  Would I be endangering the bees and brood that I transfer?  Would the foragers call this home and become part of the new hive?

What could I expect if I just added brood and honey?  Or should I pull the nuc off the stand, wait a week, and start fresh?

Part of me hopes that the bees are clustering around a queen, although I know it is very unlikely.

[riverbee]

a tiny cluster?

couple options,
1. dump them out in front of the hive the nuc is next to. remove the nuc.  (they probably won't be accepted)

2. spray the tiny cluster with sugar syrup (lightly). open the hive the nuc is sitting next to, a puff of smoke. spray the tops of the frames and bees remaining with sugar syrup (again lightly), dump/shake the bees in from the lid of the nuc. watch what happens. the bees will be too busy licking the sugar syrup off each other, by the time they are done, all is well. remove the nuc. 

3. remove the nuc completely after doing one of the above. use it later it for your divide. 'start fresh'.

my preference would be to shake them right in (tiny cluster) as long as there is no queen.

clipping of a queen's wings can 'backfire' and can be problematic.......many pros and con's. i don't clip the wings of my queens.

EDIT AND ADD:
wm..........when there is pollen coming in the queen is laying..........pollen is needed to raise baby bees. pollen will be available up here before any real nectar flow, may be different for you in your environment. have you seen any drones?

[Wandering Man]

EDIT AND ADD:
wm..........when there is pollen coming in the queen is laying..........pollen is needed to raise baby bees. pollen will be available up here before any real nectar flow, may be different for you in your environment. have you seen any drones?

Whew!  This poor dab of bees has had a rough life.  Let me give an update:

After we added two frames of brood and two frames of honey, we waited a week to check on them.

When we checked, two of the frames were slimed with SHB larvae.

We pulled those two nasty frames, and moved the clean frames into a clean nuc box and bottom board.

I managed to peel the top of the queen cell off in the process.

Then, I put on the first nuc box above the second with two sheets of newspaper between.  I didn't realize it was two, I thought it was only one, until it was too late.  In the top nuc box I added one frame of honey and one frame of brood, along with the bees that were on these frames.

The next day I stood outside of the nuc, and could hear a bunch of angry bees inside.  Their sisters in arms were also highly agitated.  I had a lot of bees in my face.  Thankfully I was protected.

I managed to make an opening in the paper so the two hives could mix, and the bees calmed down a little.

Yesterday, 3Reds and I pulled off the top nuc and added the frames to the bottom nuc, pulling two of the frames of foundation that we had put in there.  We found a few bee larvae on the bottom board, and a bunch of crumbs.  I replaced the bottom board with the clean one.

Inspecting the bee larvae, I saw a few shb larvae, also.  So, while the bees have a better situation, they are still fighting (and winning, I think) SHB eggs and larvae.  I didn't see any adult shb in the nuc.  Just in case, 3Reds and I added a beetle blaster with a bit of oil in it to help the bees.

Oh, and the bees had repaired the damaged queen cell.  In addition, I saw two new queen cells being built in the brood frame from the top nuc.

During all of this process I've built a new hive stand, which is a bit higher off the ground, and only has two legs, rather than four.  I added Diatomaceous Earth around and under the stand.

This afternoon, I suited up and stood outside of the hive.  The bees are still defensive, but have cooled off a bit.  I only had three or four bees in my face, rather than the dozen or so I had before.  And they abandoned me much more quickly.

There is better activity outside of this nuc than I have seen before.  Even more joy, as I saw a couple of bees enter the hive with pollen!

The first queen should not emerge until April 10.  The other two are not due for another week and a half, I think.

I have one guard bee that keeps harassing me if I take too much time getting into my truck, a good distance from the hive.  She even bounced herself off the back of my head once when I started walking in the direction of the hive (to go to my workshop).

I am wondering at what point these normally peaceful bees will return to normal.  When the queen emerges?  Or not until after she starts laying eggs?

Mostly, right now I am hopeful that 3Reds and I have made a successful split, despite all of our rookie mistakes.

[Lburou]

Dr. Rangel of Texas A&M University reports that colonies about to swarm can actually have scout bees dancing to advocate a new, permanent, nesting site.  In her research at Cornell University (with Dr. Seeley) she recorded bees about to swarm were marked in the original colony and found defending a new location and apparently expecting their swarm to take up residence there.  WM, those bees could be there in advance of a swarm.  Watch the video here, start at 58 minutes for an explanation of (scout) bees guarding a new nest site. 

[Wandering Man]

That's interesting, Lee. If that's what was happening, I spoiled their plans by dumping a bunch of bees on top of them.

[Lburou]

You never know with bees.