Author Topic: Hydroxymethylfurfural in sugar syrup  (Read 3374 times)

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Offline Rugerbob

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Hydroxymethylfurfural in sugar syrup
« on: March 03, 2017, 05:01:37 pm »
Fondant good or bad??

Offline Perry

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Re: Hydroxymethylfurfural in sugar syrup
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2017, 05:11:05 pm »
I have no idea what that word is, but I feed fondant and have for years to anything that is light and in danger of starving. When temps are below 10 C and sugar syrup is not an option, fondant is the way to go.
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Offline neillsayers

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Re: Hydroxymethylfurfural in sugar syrup
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2017, 07:37:09 pm »
Rugerbob,

You sent me to google with that one. Best I can tell this potentially toxic product is produced by dehydrating fructose, a real issue if feeding HFCS, and also when caramelizing sugar for syrup. Can't see it being an issue with fondant as long as temps are kept below or just at boiling. I haven't fed fondant, not sure how to make it, but it is important not to caramelize the sugar when making syrup.
Neill Sayers
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Offline Rugerbob

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Re: Hydroxymethylfurfural in sugar syrup
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2017, 04:22:52 am »
My concern is that Hydroxymethylfurfural formation is promoted by heat and acids, essential elements of fondant making.

Offline robo

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Re: Hydroxymethylfurfural in sugar syrup
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2017, 07:24:59 am »
I have no idea what that word is.

Perry, it is known as 'HMF' for short and is the reason you shouldn't feed honey that has been over heated or syrup that is burnt.

Here is some more info -> https://honeybeesuite.com/hydroxymethylfurfural-in-sugar-syrup/

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Offline Perry

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Re: Hydroxymethylfurfural in sugar syrup
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2017, 08:02:22 am »
Just proving that you are never too old to learn something. :)
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Offline Barbarian

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Re: Hydroxymethylfurfural in sugar syrup
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2017, 09:35:54 am »
A tentative two cents worth about HMF.

A solution of OA in sucrose/water will speed the production of HMF. Some info about storage of OA solutions and HMF levels in honey can be found by searching the Dave Cushman site.

www.dave-cushman.net

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Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Hydroxymethylfurfural in sugar syrup
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2017, 11:28:55 am »
That's why you never want to feed dark syrup.  I use sucrose but I invert it after it starts to cool down and I feed all that I mix.  I use citric acid to invert the sucrose but I doubt it is a complete conversion and certainly less fructose that High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS).  The more you heat HFCS, the darker it becomes and the concentration of HMF increases.  For soft drinks, the nice clear HFCS is used for clear drinks like sprite or ginger ale.  The reheated stuff that turns dark is used for the darker drinks like cola.  A beekeeper here, years ago, bought some dark syrup from the Pepsi plant for cheap.  Thought he got a good deal till his bees died!  There was a good article on fructose chemistry many years ago in the American Bee Journal (I believe); haven't had a dark soda drink since!
Chip

Offline Les

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Re: Hydroxymethylfurfural in sugar syrup
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2017, 11:41:24 am »
Rob,  okay I read the article and not being of a scientific mind it just confused me.  Since I follow your formula for making sugar cakes is it good or bad to be heating up the sugar? 

Offline robo

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Re: Hydroxymethylfurfural in sugar syrup
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2017, 07:47:15 pm »
Rob,  okay I read the article and not being of a scientific mind it just confused me.  Since I follow your formula for making sugar cakes is it good or bad to be heating up the sugar?

That is the million dollar question.   They get much more out of inverted sugar than having to burn energy inverting it themselves.  Possibly loosing a few bees to HMF is better than loosing the whole colony to starvation to me.

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Offline CBT

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Re: Hydroxymethylfurfural in sugar syrup
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2017, 09:01:29 pm »
Can I invert cane sugar when I make syrup if so how much of what per gallon. We use a large water pump to mix into syrup without heating above room temperature. Thanks in advance for advice. C:-)

Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Hydroxymethylfurfural in sugar syrup
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2017, 10:48:01 pm »
I use 1 cup of citric acid to 150 gallons of syrup.  I wouldn't worry too much about HMF in sugar syrup unless you get it too hot or if you reheat the syrup to excess.  HMF is basically a byproduct of what chemists call a browning reaction (carmelization) and the main sugar of concern is fructose.  HFCS is especially high in fructose so its especially vulnerable to HMF production when overheated.  I always like to err on the safe side so I heat my water to nearly scalding temperatures in a large diary tank that has an agitator paddle.  I then remove the heat source, add sugar and keep the paddle spinning until it's all dissolved.  After adding the sugar, bag at a time, the solution cools so the syrup is warm to the touch but never hot when it's mixed at 2:1 by weight.  That's when I add the citric acid and I let it spin (usually overnight) to let the acid do it's thing.  The ratio I use was passed along from another commercial beekeeper, not a chemist, so whether it's the optimal amount is a question for which I have no answer.  Works for me.  They tell me that bees don't gain weight on 2:1 syrup in fall but mine do get heavier so I suspect I am getting a pretty good inversion.  You could add more citric acid and probably be ok too.  I buy organic food-grade citric powder on ebay and it's inexpensive.  Other acids will invert sucrose but citric is the one I use.  Sucrose is a disaccharide (di=2, and saccharide= sugar).  In sucrose, those 2 sugars are glucose and fructose; the acid splits (or inverts) the sucrose to glucose and fructose.  Bees do that too but they expend lots of energy in the process (hence, why hives tend to gain little, if any weight, when fed straight sucrose--they burn so many calories to break the molecule apart that weight gain can be a wash).  If you do it for them, they will store more and the hive will get heavier.  More important in fall than in spring but I always invert the syrup--they still draw comb like crazy in spring, just like straight sucrose.
Chip
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Offline Lburou

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Re: Hydroxymethylfurfural in sugar syrup
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2017, 09:54:54 am »
...Bees do that (invert sugar) too but they expend lots of energy in the process (hence, why hives tend to gain little, if any weight, when fed straight sucrose--they burn so many calories to break the molecule apart that weight gain can be a wash).  If you do it for them, they will store more and the hive will get heavier.  More important in fall than in spring but I always invert the syrup--they still draw comb like crazy in spring, just like straight sucrose.

Chip, this makes me rethink my sugar boards in winter.  I always thought of them as an emergency measure for those few hives short of their needs...I've kept an ear out for a report of how much energy you save the bees by inverting sugar, but haven't heard any quantitative info on it.  I use hot water from the house to mix with sugar, maybe I should go back to heating it in the microwave...?  I had previously read that the sugar inverts at 141* F but find 235* F on google today.  One google source said that 1% citric acid will invert the sugar with 50% water in the mix.  :)
Lee_Burough
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Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Hydroxymethylfurfural in sugar syrup
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2017, 02:48:32 pm »
Good question Lee--wish I had the answer!  I've never used sugar boards but my impression is that it's main value is as an emergency food.  I don't know of any studies (there may well be some though) that have looked at the energetics of consuming straight sucrose.  It would make sense to invert it to the extent possible but sugar boards still likely serve a useful purpose.  If you're starving, food keeps you going even if there isn't surplus to store in the comb (and hence make the hive gain weight).  Whether or not the bees use more calories than they gain is the question I can't answer.  Even if it's a wash, it would still be a useful emergency food.  My guess (and only a guess) is that there is a positive benefit but not as much as feeding sugars richer in fructose.  My strategy is to get the hives as heavy as I can with inverted syrup but most are really heavy at the end of our season here.  I also feed extra protein to maximize brood production for winter bees but I can assess my bees (the ones in CA and make adjustments there, as necessary).  The very best sweet to feed is honey and I'll (many of my colleagues here also) often add a frame or 2 of honey if I have a nice strong hive in fall that's a little light.  I do that as I go through hives in my outyards or even in my holding yard here at home.  I'll combine hives, shake weaker ones, etc and I always generate some good honey and pollen combs.  As I'm going through them, I'll add those frames to any hive that I feel would benefit from a boost of honey and/or pollen.  After that, I give them the last pollen patty of the year but I'll add syrup till they stop taking it or until they seem nice and heavy when I tip them.  A lot of commercial beekeepers do the same and very few will try to nurse a weak hive through winter--it's called taking your spring losses in the fall.  I feel it is better to shake bees so there are enough bodies in there to control the temperature better and plenty of food.  Mother nature never provided sugar boards nor did she give out "free" frames of honey or pollen.  We do what we can to keep our bees healthy and fit.  That said, there are as many different ways to be successful at beekeeping as there are opinions about what works best.  What works for you and fits your management style is always your best option :)
Chip
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Offline vvand111

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Re: Hydroxymethylfurfural in sugar syrup
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2017, 10:05:39 pm »
Unfortunately I am not able to add to this thread other than saying that I really appreciate the information and will continue to learn