Author Topic: small cell bees  (Read 23152 times)

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Offline tecumseh

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2014, 04:15:01 am »
a barry snip...
my only issue with foundationless is that while it's cheap for you is the most expensive things that bees can make resource wise. I am certain you're aware the conversion ratios of nectar to honey and honey to wax

a crofter snip...
My experience is that bees will draw out a frame of foundationless quicker than they can draw out comb on wax preprinted foundation and much quicker than on plastic foundation.

tecumseh...
context can make a huge difference in PERCEIVED RESULTS and perceived results are not the same as the actual results (and this my friends is why science has great value).  the above sounds a bit like 'you can have your cake and eat it too..... which is to suggest that the above two snips seem totally contrary to each other.

Offline Crofter

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2014, 07:25:12 am »
I think some of the comparisons in loss of honey production does not differentiate between  the available of fully drawn out comb vs bare foundation vs foundationless frames.

In such a case the  4 days or so delay to draw out out comb and the lower honey production figure gets extrapolated as the 7:1 figure of the relative energy cost of wax production. There is no question that a colony will brood up quicker and produce more honey, given drawn comb.
Frank

Offline Crofter

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2014, 08:09:08 am »


 As far as I have been able to tell, the queen size doesnt change much using small or large cell. I can only assume because they make the queens cell OFF the foundation..
   Hoping this keeps going.. like to know what everyone else has gleaned from their research, even if that research only involves reading and watching vids.

 

LZY. What I was getting at was not the queens size being different in "regressed" bees but rather the question to me is, if you requeen a colony of "regressed" bees and put them onto all new foundationless frames will they continue to draw smaller average cell size. Also will the old queen of the regressed bees take the traits with her.

In other words, is it learned behaviour with no genetic change? Over a period of years have we changed the genetics by enlarging the supplied cell size of foundation? If so can we reverse this genetic shift in a few generations or do we have to start selecting queens whose offspring most readily "regress" and cull by some means the ones who dont?

Intuitively, my mental processes are not satisfied by what is claimed in a couple of the most touted examples of "regression" and the subsequent mite tolerance. I know that an occasional pearl can be plucked from a clam but I get weary sorting through a lot of alternately convoluted and stretched connections in their hypotheses. I guess I just have to see a strong chain of connectedness before I commit myself to it!

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Frank

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2014, 09:11:35 am »
Oh OK, I think I understand...  and, I THINK I can answer, but some of that answer will be strictly from secondhand experience...
   SIZE isnt genetic.. or, I guess I should say it IS genetic, but, the genetic size and actual size have little to do with one another. 
   The SIZE of the cell on foundation is a forced thing decided on by whoever is making the foundation, the queen and genetics do not matter. If she has two cells side by side.. a 4.85 mm cell on one side and a 5.4 mm cell beside it. She will lay eggs in both. One will be a slightly larger bee than the other when they emerge. The smaller bee will emerge first by almost a day.
  SO
  Its the actual size of the cell making the determination here, not the bees or the queen or the genetics.
  The problem with regression is that bees use themselves to gauge the cell size when they build those cells, so taking a large cell bee and allowing it to make new cells with no foundation.. it will make a cell slightly smaller..  hatch a be from that new cell, and IT will build a cell slightly smaller.  M.Bush says two generations, and I believe Dee Lusby says it can be done in three generations.. but sometimes takes more.  I didnt measure or count, or even worry about it, I just continue to put in empty frames for them to draw and let them do as they wish.
   M. Bush says if your putting bees in a hive on new foundation, GIVE them small cell and they will be regressed!   I tried that with PF120's and got a mess on the foundation.  So I believe it does take natural comb and at least three generations..  I suppose if you were in a hurry, scraping off the mess and continuing to insist they do it right they eventually would..  but are we in a hurry for a reason?   Its a lot easier to slowly rotate in the new frames a few at a time.
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Offline skydiver

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2014, 09:22:56 am »
Quote
LZY. What I was getting at was not the queens size being different in "regressed" bees but rather the question to me is, if you requeen a colony of "regressed" bees and put them onto all new foundationless frames will they continue to draw smaller average cell size
I am not lazy, but yes if you take bees from a standered hive  that has had 5.4mm foundation drawn for brood comb and shake them all (including the queen) from there combs into a new hive with no foundation in the frames. They will draw new comb in the brood nest area that is smaller 5.1mm on the first regression. Then do it again, after they build back up, they will draw smaller yet 4.9mm average in the brood nest area and larger cell outside of the nest. All done from bees that have been on 5.4mm foundation for years. Which shows the genetic imprint has never left the bees they just fallow ,for most part, the imprint on the foundation as long as the change is not to big of a jump. Which is why if you want to regress your bees using foundation from 5.4mm to 4.8mm you get better results going with 5.1mm foundation for a generation or two of bees, to get smaller workers from them smaller cell, and then those smaller works are able to draw the 4.8mm foundation.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2014, 09:26:55 am »
Thanks Skydiver.. you said it with fewer words and made it more understandable
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Offline skydiver

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2014, 09:41:50 am »
Quote
but are we in a hurry for a reason?
If we want small cell bee quickly. One should just buy a nuc or two of small cell bees and build them up and split them to get your small cell numbers.   ;) ;)
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Offline Crofter

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2014, 09:48:41 am »
It would be interesting to measure the the incubation time of bees in the process of being "regressed" to see if, or by how much it changed. It should be do able within the life span of a queen to ensure the genetics didnt change during the experiment time. It would be interesting to pull pupae from the various cells that encompass the range of sizes observed and see if the varroa #s differed. It would take some serious methods and documentation to do it, but it seems amazing that such a potentially simple solution to varroa control has not been pounced upon.
Frank

Offline Crofter

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2014, 10:04:53 am »
I think the time necessary to get either small cell or natural sized comb drawn out and every bee in the hive hatched on those cells would be quite a mission before any meaningful comparisons could begin. Most people who have dabbled with it have so many other unaccounted changes going on at the same time that it makes conclusions, such as they presently are; open to a lot of conjecture.
Frank

Offline barry42001

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #69 on: February 13, 2014, 11:03:10 am »
I do believe the life cycle of a bee is the life cycle of the bee. whether small cell or anything else. once the egg is laid the clock has started. and it will take 21 days give or take a couple hours for workers.

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« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 11:23:58 am by barry42001 »
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #70 on: February 13, 2014, 01:12:05 pm »
If you look at Dee's site, Michael Bush's site, the natural beekeeping blogs etc.. you will see that the small cell bee emerges ALMOST a day sooner.. and THIS is the reason people thought it would make them Varroa resistant. the AHB on their natural cell do exactly the same thing. One day earlier, and since they were resistant to the Varroa, this HAD to be the answer.. right!! Right!!!
   Sadly... no..  It may certainly be a PART of the answer, but its not the whole answer.
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Offline Crofter

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2014, 01:23:25 pm »
http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/ed-dee-lusby/more-on-small-cell-foundation-for-mite-control/managing-colony-genetics-by-grafting-and-selecting-for-queens-with-shorter-development-times/

The bees do a very fine regulation of the brood temperature but at the extremes of outside conditions enough variation can occur to change the emergence time about a day total:where AHB genetics are in the feral bees, their slightly reduced emergence time for queens at least could give a slight nod to being the first queen to emerge. In a few generations that could lead to having "regressed" bees that readily draw smaller cell size. Hmmmmm.
 Can it be demonstrated with certainty that merely laying eggs (of certified non africanized genetics) in smaller cells will shorten the emergence period that amount or is that an explanation for other causal effects?

"Small celled bees" get much better PR than "Africanized hybrid bees". Marketing symantecs?  My jury is still in deliberation!
Frank

Offline barry42001

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2014, 01:39:38 pm »
although it is a sloppy comparison, I kept the colony of bald faced Hornets that I captured about the size of a softball. the initial workers were rather small by Hornet standards the reason being they were fed solely by the Queen who had to split her duties between buildings cells, building the outside covering around the colony, and hunting to feed a growing numbers of larvae. as I said in the moment the egg is laid the clock is ticking. regardless of how well nourished the larvae is, after X number of days it will start to pupation. after X number of days it will emerge as an adult not a full sized adult as what will follow because what will follow will be better fed. again a sloppy comparison.

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« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 01:45:29 pm by barry42001 »
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2014, 02:12:06 pm »
Crofter;
  Can it be demonstrated with certainty that merely laying eggs (of certified non africanized genetics) in smaller cells will shorten the emergence period that amount or is that an explanation for other causal effects?

MB:  The shorter time to emergence is a product of cell size, as I and others have observed and measured in EHB's on small cell.

  supposedly... the small cell bees that ARE regressed will also produce a smaller queen that also emerges about a day earlier, matching the AHB for emergence time..   
   I have also been reading a bit about the AHB.. and south America where beekeepers are maintaining them on STANDARD foundation, they are producing larger bees and queens that emerge a day later than on small, or natural cell..   A day is not quite right, its not quite a day. One report says about 20 hours and another says just over 21 hours.. close enough to a day for my unscientific mind.

   Personally, I feel that the resistance to mites the AHB show in natural comb is related to genetics and instincts. If we let our hives swarm two, three, or four times a year, and make new queens, the break in each brood cycle would set the mites back. Add in SOME hygienic behavior and you would have a very mite tolerant bee.
   The managed colonies of AHB that are prevented from swarming AND being raised on standard foundation are having problems with mites.

   In all the reading I have done, the tests to compare large and small cell bees for resistance were done over short periods of time, MANY of those tests also ran large and small cell foundation in the same hive to make comparisons..  Many of these hives were also Treated in various ways DURING the tests.. OA treatments for example, so the bees were never PUSHED to the limit.
   The small cell folks say it can often take as much as two years for the resistane to kick in and become evident, and they also claim that the bees HAVE to be pushed to the breaking point before the small cell bees start to react to the mites, while large cell bees would NOT react...


  blahhhh...  my head is going to explode...  Information overload on a not so bright country boy.

      So...  Keeping VSH natural cell bees that emerge sooner, doing a spring Artificial swarm split, and using OA Vapor early spring and late summer..   May?? Be enough to keep the Varroa at bay?    I think that will be my plan and see how it goes by doing mite counts every month.   Perusing a hundred articles trying to find the truth, one way or another is best left to brighter bulbs than mine.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 02:33:45 pm by LazyBkpr »
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Offline tecumseh

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2014, 06:30:44 am »
a Barry snip...
I do believe the life cycle of a bee is the life cycle of the bee. whether small cell or anything else. once the egg is laid the clock has started. and it will take 21 days give or take a couple hours for workers.

tecumseh....
I am with you here Barry, but perhaps not 100%.  Although many many text may suggest it takes 3 days for a egg to turn larval and 22 days for a worker to go from an egg to an emerged adult these are all just MEAN calculation so there is some natural variation around these stated times.   You only need to rear a few queens and pull cells religiously to find out pretty quick that all cells do not just hatch at a predefined time.  Some well respected authorities (you know the kind that have PHD behind their names???) have suggested that the transition from egg to larvae is nocturnal < so logically if the egg turned larval in exactly 3 days (72 hours) why would this all happen at night if the queen is laying all the time.

Quite obvious to me things like temperature and humidity can significantly alter these process.  again if you rear a few queens and pay any kind of attention to what is happening when the weather is coolish the emergence of the virgin queen takes just a bit longer and if temperature and humidity are optimal then the time required is a bit shorter.

snip one..
If you look at Dee's site, Michael Bush's site, the natural beekeeping blogs etc.. you will see that the small cell bee emerges ALMOST a day sooner.

snip two..
 The small cell folks say it can often take as much as two years for the resistane to kick in and become evident, and they also claim that the bees HAVE to be pushed to the breaking point before the small cell bees start to react to the mites, while large cell bees would NOT react...

tecumseh...
so how do you reckon the two 'authorities' might actually determine this difference with any accuracy?  perhaps you have reviewed each of these folks data sheet to confirm their conclusion?  if no methodology or data sheet exist then this 'evidence' is considered allegorical >which is often times where REAL SCIENCE begins. 

at the end of the day if you make these kinds of conclusion then you try to understand the MECHANISM (basically you are asking the question HOW something works) to describe what is going on with this difference.

snip two does sound to me a bit like pure rhetorical rubbish but none the less a good way to cover you tracks.  prior to the time folks began to rear bees for varroa resistance the time required for varroa to kill a hive (essentially 100% of any sub population) was two years.  ONCE AGAIN I would ask you what mechanism might be in play that it waits for two years to kick in?

sadly some years ago when I asked Mr Bush this question of mechanism directly he seem quite clueless... couldn't even compose a logical hypothesis for this difference... and in the process gave me at least another bit of evidence as to his capacity to actually conduct anything that looked like REAL science.  of course for the small cell TRUE BELIEVERS there is always FAITH <reference a good little book here by Eric Hoffer called The True Believer... pretty much explains why some mass movement persist and why some fail and it also give you some understanding of why THE TRUE BELIEVER will follow some authority right over a cliff almost without fail or consideration of how final this decision really works out.

lastly although quite often small cell phone point to AHB as a model of resistance to varroa there is really no real evidence to suggest this is true.  If the AHB actually has an advantage over the varroa I would suspect the frequency of swarming and the resulting breaks in the brood cycle has more to do with this difference than anything else.... IF this difference does exist.

Offline Marbees

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #75 on: February 14, 2014, 07:09:32 am »
tec, you said it all. :yah: :agree: thanks
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Offline Crofter

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2014, 09:10:24 am »
tec, you said it all. :yah: :agree: thanks

I add my thanks to this; I think it is essential to have people point out contradictions or omissions in claims made otherwise there gets to be ideas considered "common knowledge" that amount to little more than highly subjective observations.

It is nice to see it done in a way that encourages rational discussion without animosity.
Frank

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2014, 09:50:09 am »
hrm.. well, thats sort of what I was saying..   Theres LOTS of things to read and very few FACTS.  It is easy to write something, and not so easy to back it up. 
   As far as the difference in emergence time, that should be very easy to prove. So I am not sure why it hasnt been. I am completely confused WHY many of these things haven't been legitimately put to the TEST to see if there is even a hint of truth to them..   They design experiments and tests that.. at least to my untrained eye look like they were MEANT to fail..   When someone like myself with limited intelligence can look at these tests and see IMMEDIATELY the faults in them.. then why cant these folks with PHD's by their names see those faults?
   From what i have read, beeks usually start to lose hives to Varroa late in the second year, with growing losses going into the third year.. so.. why design an experiment that lasts a couple of months, AND treat the bees to kill the mites DURING those experiments?  Why would you put small cell foundation into a large cell hive and expect the bees on ONE frame to suddenly start resisting mites? Or for tham matter why would you even expect them to draw that frame out with small cells?   Blahhh..   Most of the research data I have read I never finished reading.. its that mind block wall that comes up when I read the METHODS used and see that they are already doomed. I can read what they did, see the faults and guess the results before I see them. So far batting one hundred.

   Resistance..   from what I have gathered from several sites and even vids, is that all bees have a certain resistance, or Hygienic behavior, but most no longer show it, or use it.  In order to bring that out, it takes pushing them to the breaking point, sometimes as long as two years before they reach that point of intolerance, that their resistance begins to kick in..
   OK....
    This makes a certain amount of sense to me. Perhaps in the past bees had some other pst they had to deal with? those hygienic traits are there buried in the past. Kind of like watching a young boy grow into a teenager and suddenly one day, he SEES GIRLS!
   However, the fact that they claim this works ONLY on small cell bees doesn't make any sense to me, and more or less ruins any further discussion.  Once my mind raises the wall of disbelief, there is nothing else to be said that I am willing to give credit to. 

   So why discuss it?  Because I want at least some of it to be true, and there is always hope that someone will step up and say HEY look at this research! These guys and gals did a GREAT job with their tests... and THIS is what they found!

   I will be paying attention this year to emergence times. I cant imagine that it would be greatly difficult to put a piece of drawn comb into a brood nest, and pull that brood comb..   ??  two hours later? Check for eggs, put it above an excluder and begin the countdown. Emergence time would have a variable of two hours.  This could easily be done in spring, summer and fall to add temps, humidity etc to the mix.

   I am not pro OR con.  While I am not a disciple, I would like to know as much as possible.  Things like Nocturnal eggs raise that wall of disbelief, PHD or not. I can't see the explanation for it?  I can sort of see where pushing a beehive to its limit would make a trait that is dormant rise to the surface.  I suspect that the egg will hatch when its ready, be it day or night. Kind of like that pot of water your watching. It WILL boil when its ready, watching or not.
"Perhaps you have reviewed each of these folks "nocturnal" data sheet to confirm their conclusion?"  heheh, sorry Tec, couldn't help myself...   
 
   Emergence time is easy to check. TOO easy to lie about.  Other claims that are less believable???  I would ask.. WHY lie about them?  What would be the point?
 So lets say I tell you ALL;
    " Put blue paint UNDER the bottom board of your hive will repel ALL varroa within two years!"
    Isn't it rather apparent that in two years your all going to know I was full of POO clear up to my eyebrows?
   Yeah, I could say you used the wrong shade of blue, or that you used flat paint instead of high gloss, but it is still too easy to test and prove that I am an idiot.

   I think it has more to do with region, climate and genetics than outright lies. What works for MB, Dee, and the others who claim success, is because ALL of the underlying circumstances added together worked, rather than any single thing they did.  I am still waiting for someone to put all of those little pieces together and say..  AHAA!

   Besides, its SNOWING like mad right now, and I AM going stir crazy. I have some interest in this so its a good discussion to see what yall believe and don't.

 
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Offline Crofter

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2014, 10:27:17 am »
Keep your thinking cap on LZYBKPR even if the itch drives ya mad! On thing I would question, is the weight of  the idea about "why lie?" I think you are taking your personal feelings about being caught in a lie and supposing it is equally truth motivating for others. I personally have known at least 2 individuals who would tell the most preposterous lies, some certain to be discovered, and creatively explain them away if confronted.
Some cult leaders are notorious for this capacity. The "messiah complex" has its own reward system that we mortals might not appreciate.

I agree about how poor some of the experiments were that purported to debunk the small cell theory. Just as classic as another one that was supposed to discover the effects of a certain pesticide. It was nothing more than a self fulfilling prophesy.

That kind of very poor scientific process sours so many people that they tend to lose respect for any manifestation of "scientific" and pushes them into the embrace of other's subjective findings.

Left to our own devices, our experiments suffer the problem of "local conditions" influence and product sample size/ probability distortions. Dont even mention our own preconceptions! :laugh:

It is not easy to do good science!
Frank