Author Topic: small cell bees  (Read 23168 times)

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Offline iddee

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2014, 10:49:23 pm »
"" Keep in mind that "normal" foundation is 5.4 mm and natural cell is between 4.6 mm and 5.0 mm.""

Please provide a link or two. My understanding was the natural size "averaged" 5.3, and it was enlarged to 5.6 for the larger bee. The 4.9, I thought, only came about after the varroa got here.

Please show me where I am wrong.
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2014, 11:09:00 pm »
(ABC XYZ of beekeeping 1945 edition page 125-126.)

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/ed-dee-lusby/
   Dee claims it is actually 4.83mm

   http://bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm    =   Natural worker comb   4.6 mm to 5.1 mm

  There are quite a few other references..
   You can also find statements that argue this, but since I have proven it to myself I find it hard to argue against. MANY of the nay sayers I have talked to and read their sites failed to CONTINUE to allow their bees to build what they WANTED, rather, they put an empty foundation in a hive of "NORMAL" plastic or wax foundation and then measured what they pulled out, and that answer is a lot like running a test on Varroa resistance for two weeks during drone rearing season. When I pointed this out to one of those sites he threatened to charge me with harassment if I ever emailed him again...    :'(

   I will take pictures of my combs and post them as soon as I can get in the hives.

   I have aq collection of snipets from sites I read, it will take me some time to figure out where they all came from, I know the last one is from the Bee hive journal site..   http://beehivejournal.blogspot.com/2010/01/cell-size-facts-and-discussion.html

  I have just had a partial collapse of comb with brood and nectar. Took
pieces out and measured cells to be 4.9 in my TBH

We've been getting numbers in the worker brood area 4.9 and smaller. This
is from a swarm. Some of the drone cells are up
towards 5.4mm! I have to do some more measuring of the honey/pollen cells.

In nature, bees will build comb with different size cells for different
 reasons. For instance, the brood cells are approximately 4.9 mm

  what we now call “small cell” was actually the natural cell size back in
 the early 1900s. At that time bee breeders thought that they could improve
 on honey bees by growing bigger bees that would produce more honey.

   All the cell walls stand at 120º to each other, forming a perfect lattice.
  Natural comb cells for non-Africanized bees are generally 1 inch deep and
 4.9 mm wide.

  I read it on the internet so it HAS to be true right?
   

   
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Offline tecumseh

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2014, 06:06:41 am »
a barry snip....
the first thing you have to understand that the small cell is not the natural sized cell for European honeybees,

another snip...
http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/ed-dee-lusby/
   Dee claims it is actually 4.83mm

   http://bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm    =   Natural worker comb   4.6 mm to 5.1 mm

tecumseh...
so little time and so little true understanding..

I suspect with a bit of rigorous logic Barry content makes more sense than anything either of the above and questionable links might suggest.  logic inform me that since their were half a dozen or so races of bees in europe and each of these had somewhat to significant morphological difference that any mean number (average) stated would also include a greater and greater deviation around this mean.  if some author does state some mean without the deviation included it really suggest that their understanding of basic science is a bit to HIGHLY flawed.

bullet point > there is no one number which can adequately express all the variation of all the bees that originated from Europe.  then of course in some places ahb is also part of the mix.

quite OBVIOUS to me some of the above information suggest that the comb of the bees measured are highly africanized.   of course if you keep bees like this in places where state statue clearly says keeping this kind of stock is illegal (there is also added liability where ever this is a part of the legal landscape) then why not rather than call your stock africanized why not call it small cell.  clearly sounds like questionable ethics rubbing up against good marketing to me.

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2014, 10:38:03 am »
Nothing I posted had anything to do with Africanized genetics. Even the black bees from germany etc are quoted to have an average cell size of 4.66mm..   I have read that AHB cell sizes differ greatly depending on the strain and cross breeding, and havent looked into them much beyond that and watching the documentaries about them.
   Almost ALL I know is from reading, and that has the inherent tenancy to be wrong, but I have measured my own combs and verified that most of what I have read was true.  Now, Understand me here..  I think the BEST way to learn is by being WRONG.. it means you remember the lesson VERY well, and I have learned many such lessons in my lifetime, and I expect to learn MANY more..
   I have nothing against learning in this way, if I did, I'd have long ago locked myself in the house so no one could prove me wrong :P
   Indeed, bees on natural comb build different cell sizes. If you measure the center of the worker comb mine averages around 4.9 with some smaller and some larger. As the comb moves outward, the cell sizes get a little larger, and naturally Drone comb is even larger. I have NOT measured Honey comb, but it is something I need to do, because I OFTEN use last years honey comb as this years brood foundation. I have learned in the last few days that honey comb often uses larger cell size??
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Offline barry42001

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2014, 10:45:59 am »
according to what I understood because most of the bee breeder yards open mate. because that is how they fertilized Queens, it's inevitable that Africanized honey bee genes will be involved in there doing pool, Africanized drones get up earlier fly further and are faster than European drones. and while relatively speaking Africanized honey bees are a relative newcomer they're spreading the southern half of the United States has been quite remarkable trying to find Africanized bee free zone would be quite difficult down south. Africanized honey bees are smaller than European bees of course you need a micrometer to know that. if you're looking for a varroa resistant bee, the only way that changes that is if the genes that go into the bees that originally made small cells ( Africanized honey bees, and Asian bees ) who have dealt with varroa, for hundreds if not thousands of years and have worked out defense is for it. European bees have not had to deal with this except for perhaps the last 35 - 40 years not hardly enough time.

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« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 10:49:06 am by barry42001 »
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2014, 11:37:27 am »
the only way that changes that is if the genes that go into the bees that originally made small cells ( Africanized honey bees, and Asian bees ) who have dealt with varroa, for hundreds if not thousands of years and have worked out defense is for it.

  The Russian bees have been dealing with Varroa as well, which is why there is such a movement to get them and improve them.
   As far as smaller originally??   From what I have seen they were ALL that size or SMALLER originally?  Looking for evidence to the contrary. And if that can be proven, then why do my bees prefer the smaller size to the larger cells?


   AHB has an advantage in that the queens will emerge about a day ahead of the European queens, so it is usually the AHB queen thats running about killing rivals. Add to that the smaller faster drones and yeah, you have a real problem trying to keep the ahb from taking over in rapid succession, as is quite evident.
   However, in regressed bees you also see the emergence time reduced by nearly a day, (along with the smaller drones) which is why many people are claiming it helps them deal with the varroa. Keepers of AHB colonies that put them on standard foundation claim that they STILL have problems with mites, but I don't want to get into that argument because I havent seen any drastic change in resistance with my own bees, so I cant personally say it helps or it doesnt, in fact I would claim it doesn't if forced to it.
   The last documentary I watched claims that the AHB traits are passed on by the drones, not the queens. When an AHB queen is bred by AI to a eurpoean drone the temperment calms considerably, when a Eurpoean queen is bred by an AHB drone, her offspring become hyper aggressive...  so the problem will be to somehow overcome the AHB drones.
   I would think smaller european drones might give them a run for their money??
    The National Geographic Documentary Attack of the Killer Bees is a good watch if you have the time.
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Offline Crofter

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2014, 01:35:26 pm »
I know there is a big variation in size amongst my worker bees. I attribute that to the drones genetics but I do have a mixture of wax and plastic foundation and some Mann Lake small cell plastic frames. It would take a lot of work and disciplined record keeping as well as control colonies to see where they would drift size wise in their body size and preferred cell size. During that process the background of drone population could well be changing enough to skew the observations.

I would want to see if the cell size preference would transport with the queen. I would want to verify whether geographic latitude had an effect, I would want to see if so called retrogression was reversable. Many questions. I think the tests so far have not been well controlled either by the proponents or the detractors. My feeling is that if it were that simple it would be accepted practice long ago. A large number of vert good, observant beekeepers have called bunk on it. 

Confirmation bias is a powerful force.
Frank

Offline barry42001

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2014, 01:38:08 pm »
I'm not sure precisely what you're looking for in your bees, varroa resistant strains of course do exist. by continually crossing and hybridizing strains, I do not believe we necessarily strengthen anyone given species it be. hybrid vigor is one thing, continually experimenting, and then even when less then ideal traits manifest, we continue to perpetuate the bad traits, despite the fact we haven't exactly gotten what we were looking for to begin with. yes there is an element of truth that some of the nastier bees have some qualities that we're looking for. are those qualities good enough that we went to endure the pounding we have to take to go through their colonies. personally no its not worth it. we seem to have gotten away from some very basic beekeeping. most things that affect are hives are caused by us. obviously we a small beekeepers are influenced by insecticides and things like that things we can't really control. I would think that would be more  a issue for the commercial beekeeper. but I believe we do more damage to bees by tinkering with their genetics. just my convoluted thought process.
I also believe that if you maintain truly strong colonies, not average colonies, certainly not weak colonies, but really strong colonies most of our issues would go away with regards to pests that invade the hive. say that they would go away, what they would be held in check a lot better.

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« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 01:44:31 pm by barry42001 »
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2014, 01:43:12 pm »
I concur!

 As far as I have been able to tell, the queen size doesnt change much using small or large cell. I can only assume because they make the queens cell OFF the foundation..
   Hoping this keeps going.. like to know what everyone else has gleaned from their research, even if that research only involves reading and watching vids.

   So, with the different foundations and cell sizes, your not having any issues with them buggering up the comb Croft?
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2014, 02:02:49 pm »
I won't disagree with that Barry.
   I don't like mean bees and wont keep them around any longer than it takes to re queen them.
   What i am looking for?  Honestly?  I am not LOOKING for anything. I use foundation-less because I can make it myself so its CHEAP.. (Yes i am a cheap bugger) beyond that, if the natural size cells help with diseases or mites.. GREAT.. foundation-less offers me advantages I find useful. Doing Cell punch or cutting out queen cells. Cutting out the comb instead of scraping and cleaning plastic. I can cut the old wax out and drop the frame back in the hive in moments, then melt the wax and make my wife happy when I give it to her for candles, and possibly making comb honey in the future without buying the foundation..
   Living in farm country, I try to keep wax no older than three years in the hives. i have never had the wax tested for Neonics, roundup or fungicides etc, so if nothing else, it makes me FEEL like i am doing my part to keep the bees healthy when my fields, some as close as five feet from my hives, get sprayed.
   Learning about small and natural cell came after i had already starting to convert to the foundation-less, and since I was already on that path I started looking things up and reading/watching what i could..
   BIAS is on the side of the believer, but I have also tried to look at the other side.. Unfortunately, beekeeping varies so much that it is often the BIAS of the writer that dictates the "facts"  So I post what I believe I have found to be true, and wait to be proven wrong. It has happened before, and it will happen again!
   I am happy to argue what I believe, but unlike some, I am also ready to jump ship when my beliefs are proven wrong.
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Offline barry42001

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2014, 02:15:07 pm »
my only issue with foundationless is that while it's cheap for you is the most expensive things that bees can make resource wise. I am certain you're aware the conversion ratios of nectar to honey and honey to wax. any other issue I have is even if you do provide the bees with foundation they will make changes anyway, I'm sure you have seen where they have chewed down to just wax not even the ridges of the foundation, and repurposed that area for their needs. what I didn't like about foundation is it maximizes the number of workers cells. they will still make drone cells but to a much lesser degree. unless you're doing Queen work do you really need all those drones.

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« Last Edit: February 12, 2014, 02:15:53 pm by barry42001 »
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2014, 02:23:27 pm »
Cant argue with that either, with the exception of the amount of wax saved by the foundation. Does that ounce and a half of wax makes that big of a difference in their overall production? They only have to build it once every three years in my hives. Those I still have on plastic build those plastic frames SLOWER than the bees on no foundation frames.. if I put BOTH in a hive, they will fill the empty frame before they even start on the plastic frame.. so I think there is something to be said for giving them what they want to use... does having a happy bee make up the difference in resources used??  I have NO clue!! SO I can't really argue that either   :sad:
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Offline barry42001

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2014, 02:29:18 pm »
lol I ALWAYS use crimped wire foundation plastic free

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Offline Crofter

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2014, 02:32:00 pm »
Lzybkpr quote; " I am happy to argue what I believe, but unlike some, I am also ready to jump ship when my beliefs are proven wrong."

I like that line; it would make a good signature! 

The small cell plastic was a bit messed up with vertical ridges every three inches or so. They seemed to start leaning the cells like they were tight for room, then skip a vertical row and go again till they leaned too much.

I have had them draw out foundationless drone comb and that is near picture perfect but I think this next season I will drop a few more of the narrowed foundationless frames I have, down more centered in the nest to see what they draw for size. That will also be a tool toward swarm control.


Frank

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2014, 02:38:43 pm »
Ahh, well i dont have any wax foundation, but that would make sense if I wasn't so cheap!  $500 or a grand on foundation i will have to replace in three years...   can be spent on more tools, or that 454 rotating assembly for my Dart little M block...  maybe time to set aside the roar of a nasty engine in favor of the hum of the bees...

     :o  WHAT was I thinking!!  I didnt just say that!
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Offline barry42001

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2014, 02:44:13 pm »
lol would rather spend those few extra dollars to a achieve a desired result.

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Offline Crofter

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2014, 03:06:41 pm »
Barry I have seen the biological cost of comb argued back and forth but a few things might cancel some of the perceived debit. The only difference in the required wax is that which is in the midrib. When the bees build it, it is also much thinner than what is in purchased wax foundation. I have seen the calculations of the actual amount of wax in the midrib, and it is surprisingly small. It is true that the inherent energy in wax, in strict terms of energy content, is higher but there may be other considerations in overall efficiency.

My experience is that bees will draw out a frame of foundationless quicker than they can draw out comb on wax preprinted foundation and much quicker than on plastic foundation. At times in the spring flow the foragers are held up for space waiting on comb to be drawn. If they can draw foundationless quicker and get more honey salted down I think it might greatly outweigh the bit of extra wax.

From a swarm prevention angle the outlet for the urge to make wax by the flush of young bees, seems to be relieved by putting empty frames into the brood nest. That can be done with less disturbance than the insertion of a curtain of foundation. Making wax may be for bees like sex for a teenager; no onerous task. :laugh: :laugh:

I will have all overwintered hives (if I have any at all) come spring and do not plan to increase so I will be able to play games and experiment with them. I would not look forward to going all foundationless from the get go, but the novelty of installing and wiring foundation has worn off. Unless someone were handy and liked monkeying with things, I would probably recommend wood frames and pop in the plastic foundation. Depends on the person, their abilities, and time allotment.
 
Frank

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2014, 03:30:49 pm »
lol would rather spend those few extra dollars to a achieve a desired result.

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   A desired result?  At this point I am achieving exactly the desired result. Saving myself at minimum a thousand dollars and getting nicer comb built faster than I ever did on plastic, so I suppose desired result is like beauty, its in the eye of the beholder.
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Offline barry42001

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2014, 03:53:22 pm »
I have never had with the crimp wired foundation other than perfect comb, with only occasionally gnawing in the lower corners

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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2014, 04:45:01 pm »
I have never had with the crimp wired foundation other than perfect comb, with only occasionally gnawing in the lower corners

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  Sweet! So were both happy campers then right?
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