Author Topic: small cell bees  (Read 23193 times)

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Offline Perry

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2014, 04:29:00 pm »
Didn't David Suzuki or someone do something with fruit flies, like somehow caused sterility in the male flies?
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Offline tecumseh

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2014, 07:43:33 pm »
A Crofter snip..
Just for a wild thought about different approaches, how about looking for a way to innoculate mites against the viruses. I think the bees could quite handily live with the mites direct damage if it were not for the effects of the virus loads they carry.

tecumseh...
well there is the product that Monsanto recently purchased the rights to which can inoculate bees against at least some virus vectors.  I also think/speculate that a lot of folks are feeding thymol in syrup to make the honeybee not so tasty to varroa < or at least the last national honeybee health data I saw seems to suggest there is getting to be a very large thymol load in the bees and in the comb.

from more personal experience when you do go cold turkey and no longer treat bees then the incident of various virus will show themselves < it is largely in this regards that I am leaning towards an intermediate course of treatment vs non treatment.  Which at this times looks like to me like one smaller set of bees to breed from and another for honey and bulk bee production.

Offline Crofter

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2014, 08:37:55 pm »
Tec, the idea of having two different groups of bees would have some interesting possibilities; not having all your eggs in one basket! Different treatment philosophy could be applied and the problems that seem to increase in successive years be reduced. Maybe its the management system is what needs to evolve, not the bee!

Interesting!
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Offline riverbee

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2014, 10:35:01 pm »
this is a good article to read by randy oliver, from his website, scientific beekeeping, on honey super cell®/small cell combs.
sky, he mentions and refers to dee lusby as the 'guru of small cell". some other great info/discussion as well on small cell:

Randy Oliver:  Trial of Honey Super Cell® Small Cell Combs


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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2014, 01:20:51 am »
I realize that if one uses foundationless frames the bees will draw out small cell.  My question is can one mix foundation and foundationless frames in the same super?  In other words, could you have cut comb honey and extracted honey from the same super, and if so, would it all be copacetic with the bees?

   I have had all three of my different frame types in together. I had drawn comb on large cell plastic/wood and small cell all plastic. two large cell three of the small cell.. so I shrugged my shoulders and dropped it in, filling in the rest of the gaps with empty frames. The bees filled the new frames and the queen layed in both large and small cell frames..  As the bees filled the empty frames I pulled the large cell first, then the plastic, and used them in the box that went on above for their next level hiverise apartment complex.   They never complained so I quit worrying about it. If I HAVE to use a mix I do, but prefer small cell or natural.
   Bees dont "exactly" build small cell if given foundation-less frames. Generally the worker brood is 4.8 to 5.0, but as they get toward the edges the cells get larger, and some even get drone comb. If left to their own devices the majority is small cell..  One of the advantages as I understand it, is that small cell bees emerge sooner, as much as a full day sooner, and that supposedly also has an effect on Mite lifecycle..


this is a good article to read by randy oliver, from his website, scientific beekeeping, on honey super cell®/small cell combs.
sky, he mentions and refers to dee lusby as the 'guru of small cell". some other great info/discussion as well on small cell:

Randy Oliver:  Trial of Honey Super Cell® Small Cell Combs

   Thanks Mrs River!!  I will check this out!
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2014, 09:04:35 am »
for those who dislike reading;

   The most notable result was the great difference in natural mite falls between the groups, which implies a lower mite buildup in the HSC colonies. At face value, this result would appear to support the hypothesis that small cell combs hamper mite reproduction, and indeed, they well may.  However, I would caution the reader not to extrapolate these results.  This was a trial of HoneySuperCell combs—not small cell per se.  There are various hypotheses as to why the HSC combs may have suppressed mite buildup—one of which is that they have small cell size.  However, it could well be that mite buildup was suppressed by some other factor or factors.




    Interesting, however, like almost every study I have seen done this one is also mostly inconclusive, and that they are looking for the right things in the wrong way.  First I am not sure why they used HSC.  Even their own study showed that using fully formed plastic cells made the bees unhappy.. 
   I do not believe it is the CELL SIZE that hampers mite reproduction, and dont understand why the researchers cant figure this same thing out???     While there may be incidents of the mites getting "stuck" in smaller cells, I believe the faster emergence times, and the triggering of hygienic behavior have a much larger effect from the use of small cell than the actual cell size....
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Offline tecumseh

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2014, 06:32:52 pm »
well an alternative hypothesis lazybkpr is that with no wax there is less attraction there for the mites.  I think (can't really recall the source) that old comb is more attractive to the mites than new comb...  it is suggest that in older comb there is an increasing build up of juvenile growth hormone since this product is known to be highly attractive to the mites.

Offline skydiver

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2014, 10:31:28 am »
River thanks for the link to Randys study. It shows some encouraging results but it also shows imho that it is almost  impossible to do side by side studies with the same bee genetics because you can not regress large cell bees in one generation on wax foundation that is why he was using HSC plastic frames. The debate will just keep going on and on and on. But I think beekeeping has always been that way and probably always will. If it works for you keep doing it if it don't keep trying other things until you find your own fit.
skydivers do not want to jump to a conclusion!

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2014, 04:12:34 pm »
Is anybody playing with small cell bees. I bought some last spring hoping to help lessen mite problems no opinion yet. Just wondering if anyone is playing with them? (using small cell foundation). your thoughts or experience with this?

Well I just received 504 medium 4.9 cell plastic frames for my 10 new packages due in April. I am pondering cutting the plastic foundation out if the brood frames for better (?) acceptance.   

Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2014, 04:23:44 pm »
Well I just received 504 medium 4.9 cell plastic frames for my 10 new packages due in April. I am pondering cutting the plastic foundation out if the brood frames for better (?) acceptance.

   OK, so that sort of confused me?  Are they already small cell bees?
   If not regressed why go to the extra trouble of buying small cell foundation if you plan to cut it out to regress them?
   If they are regressed then why not just use the foundation without cutting it out?
   Just a little confused.. foundation-less frames are generally cheaper than even the one piece plastic foundation/frames. You already have the frames ordered?    Please advise! 
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Offline Crofter

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2014, 04:43:47 pm »
Are you thinking of cutting the 4.9 plastic foundation out of the frame and installing it in wood frame?
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Offline barry42001

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2014, 05:05:14 pm »
actually going foundationless the bees will build a mixture of cells, not necessarily 4.9  either, probably 5.3 ( I think ) then drone cells and even slightly larger storage cells. That's what a natural comb actually consists of mostly worker cells, and a mix of the others. In truth, the bees ( to a much lesser extent ) re-work foundation to attempt to do the same thing in our hives. When we porvide foundation they are inclined the draw them out true. In time they will re-work the corner and along the bottom to their liking.

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Offline lazy shooter

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2014, 05:24:08 pm »
Small cell bees, hmmmm,……….  How small are the cells?

Offline barry42001

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2014, 05:43:58 pm »
4.9 mm

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2014, 05:57:57 pm »
Are you thinking of cutting the 4.9 plastic foundation out of the frame and installing it in wood frame?

No, I would be using the almost empty plastic frames.
My fear is that, should the bees refuse the plastic foundation they might abscond.
I also plan on narrowing the frames to 1 3/16. 

Offline Crofter

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2014, 06:45:58 pm »
I think the cutout scenario might make for some wibbly frames. Have a look on Dave Cushmans site about cutting a whole bunch of one inch holes in the foundation. It lets the bees communicate, work from both sides and apparently they will fill the holes with same size cell pattern. Supposedly they will draw it out quicker than they would a sheet of untouched foundation. It would be easy to try. Are you starting a nuc or shaking bees onto the proposed Mann Lake Pro 4.9 plastic.

Ray are you just getting bored with the long winter and starting to do some mental gymnastics until the bees fly? :laugh: :laugh:
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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2014, 08:18:14 am »
Are you thinking of cutting the 4.9 plastic foundation out of the frame and installing it in wood frame?

No, I would be using the almost empty plastic frames.
My fear is that, should the bees refuse the plastic foundation they might abscond.
I also plan on narrowing the frames to 1 3/16.

   OK...  that makes it a bit more understandable..

   So... just dont give them ALL small cell at the same instant..   give them a few foundation-less frames in the mix and let them draw what they want!   Un regressed bees often dont like to pull ALL small cell, but if you give them an option of a few foundation-less frames they will do fine.   They will pull 5.1 or so cells, and the bees that emerge from those 5.1 will pull the 4.9 with no problem.
   I think it was Barry that posted it..   giving them foundation-less doesnt mean all small cell. They will pull small cell in the center of the brood comb, but they will do larger cell as they move outward and even drone comb.
  I typically have enough drone comb on my frames to fill about two frames on a three brood box hive. (Mediums)
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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2014, 06:08:31 pm »
Been reading too much in M. Bush's website! He makes a good argument for small cell / natural cell/ foundationless, all medium depth hives.
Contacted Pierco and got a bulk price on medium unwaxed frames (all they make is 4.9). Unwaxed because I'm going to cut them down to 1 3/16.

Offline barry42001

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2014, 08:42:11 pm »
the first thing you have to understand that the small cell is not the natural sized cell for European honeybees, Africanized maybe not European. so if you don't use any foundation at all they will draw  cells natural to what they would have been drawing had they been in Europe. the only way you're going to get them to draw 4.9 sales is to provide them with that foundation and maybe they will and maybe they won't. at worse they strip the wax off the plastic and build the comb they wanted to build again with

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Offline LazyBkpr

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Re: small cell bees
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2014, 10:40:08 pm »
the first thing you have to understand that the small cell is not the natural sized cell for European honeybees
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   According to everything I have seen with my own eyes, and read on many dozens of sites 4.9 IS the average cell size for European Honeybees, if they are left to their own designs.

   Baudoux in 1893 made bees larger by using larger cells. Pinchot, Gontarski and others got the size up as large as 5.74 mm. But AI Root's first foundation was 5 cells to an inch which is 5.08 mm. Later he started making it 4.83 cells per inch. This is equivalent to 5.26 mm. (ABC XYZ of beekeeping 1945 edition page 125-126.)

  Keep in mind that "normal" foundation is 5.4 mm and natural cell is between 4.6 mm and 5.0 mm.

The size of the hexagon shape on honeycomb foundation was artificially enlarged by the beekeeping industry in the early 1900s.  This change resulted in a bigger bees that could collect and carry more nectar for each foraging flight. 

 True feral brood comb will often measure in the range of 4.6mm to 5.0mm.

  ALL of these are from different sites, I could go on for quite a while. When its warm enough I can pull a frame of larvae and lay a ruler across it to take a picture to prove the point. I have foundation-less so the bees are not guided in any way to produce larger or smaller cells. ALL of my bees started out on "normal" RiteCell plastic foundation, and through rotation they were given empty frames. The very first WORKER cells they drew out were around 5.1, which is smaller than the RiteCell 5.4 mm comb. As more foundation-less comb was dropped in over time, they made smaller cells in the center of the frames.   Of course, the first cells they drew were drone comb, and I was terribly disappointing, until I realized it was drone comb. They had a hayday on a couple frames, then got down to business.   I make no claim that it helps Varroa etc, Only that left to their own design that they DO draw smaller cells.
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