Author Topic: Moisture Boards  (Read 11191 times)

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Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2016, 10:28:18 am »
That would be buffalo board Jim.  Menards (here) sells the board that's sealed on one side so that side would point up.  Non-sealed is best but harder to find. It is cheap and can be reused.
Chip

Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2016, 03:29:24 am »
Yesterday I saw sugar for 35 cents a pound.  Unlike Chip, I only bought 80 pounds.  I came home and made 2 batches of strawberry jam.  The sugar stash was getting pretty low so now I can make emergency sugar cakes.

Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2016, 12:54:39 pm »
Where did you find it at 35 cents Baker.  I'm looking to buy again and the price is good :)
Chip

Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2016, 03:12:15 am »
Chip, the Aldi grocery store in my neighborhood.  I don't know if the price is the same every where.  I have seen their prices fluctuate from week to week.  It is sold in 4# bags, and I know you buy by the boxcar!  :o

Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2016, 04:47:38 pm »
Yep, I'm about out and need to buy some to make syrup to take to California in January when we feed bees.  The truck rides pretty good when it's loaded.  I think our weight was 15,500 lbs going and about 15,000 coming home (I bought a bunch of knock down deep boxes from a fellow in Redding).  I bought 10,000 lbs this spring for 38 cents a pound from Mann Lake in 50 lb sacks.  Got another 5,000 lbs this fall and they charged me 42 cents.  Not familiar with the grocery chain but you'd think I could get a better deal given how much we buy >:(  I'll check them out and see if there's an outlet near me.  I'd need larger bags though!!  Thanks for the info; much appreciated :)
Chip

Offline Sheepless

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2016, 12:17:43 pm »
  It is sold in 4# bags, and I know you buy by the boxcar!  :o

Story time:
My great-uncle was a commercial beekeeper...this was a while back, as he retired in 1978. There were train tracks next to his honey house, and one time a train derailed literally in his back yard. One boxcar was full of bagged sugar. He offered the cleanup crew $0.08 per pound. It took him quite a while to convince them that he was serious.

Wish I had gotten to work with him, he had been keeping bees since he was 13, starting in the late 1930's.

Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2016, 01:21:19 pm »
It's amazing how much the price of sugar fluctuates.  I bought 10,000 lbs in spring for 0.38/lb.  I bought another 5,000 lbs this fall and they charged me 0.42.  On Wednesday, I checked at Sams Club and they charged me 0.384/lb and it saved 300 miles of travel.  I ordered 5,000 lbs and will pick it up next week.  I need to find a "consistent" place to buy sugar :eusa_wall:
Chip

Offline riverbee

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2016, 01:16:27 am »
bakers,
sorry late to this thread...........about moisture boards~ my experience, i do not use them.  i wouldn't advise anyone living in the most northern climates to use moisture boards, fiber board, 'buildrite' whatever the stuff is called. you can purchase this stuff from any big box store. these boards do hold moisture. what happens is the boards do absorb moisture.  it gets full of moisture. so, during freezing, thawing cycles, the boards at some point can't hold any more moisture and rains down on the bees all at once in a thaw.  from my own experience it's detrimental.   i have lost hives in the past during  severe winters to find a moisture board soaked/frozen in moisture and found dead wet bees below it on the bottom board, large cluster, and bees clustered and frozen on honey frames beneath a frozen and soaked moisture board. (these were healthy bees and healthy hives) i went to using the 2" foam board, the pink stuff.  haven't lost a hive since using this stuff.  i quit using moisture boards.

i do have a bottom entrance and top entrance.  i just think moisture boards are not a good choice in extreme winters or for more northern climates. 
it may work for you? not sure? 
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Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2016, 07:11:50 pm »
bakers,
sorry late to this thread...........about moisture boards~ my experience, i do not use them.  i wouldn't advise anyone living in the most northern climates to use moisture boards, fiber board, 'buildrite' whatever the stuff is called. you can purchase this stuff from any big box store. these boards do hold moisture. what happens is the boards do absorb moisture.  it gets full of moisture. so, during freezing, thawing cycles, the boards at some point can't hold any more moisture and rains down on the bees all at once in a thaw.  from my own experience it's detrimental.   i have lost hives in the past during  severe winters to find a moisture board soaked/frozen in moisture and found dead wet bees below it on the bottom board, large cluster, and bees clustered and frozen on honey frames beneath a frozen and soaked moisture board. (these were healthy bees and healthy hives) i went to using the 2" foam board, the pink stuff.  haven't lost a hive since using this stuff.  i quit using moisture boards.


I think the secret to moisture boards is having a large enough opening at the top to vent most of the carbon dioxide and water vapor outside; the moisture board serves as an insurance policy.  We're colder here than in WI and I've never had one that accumulated enough water to rain icewater.  The boards are also used by the University of MN bee lab when they winter their bees.  I actually remove my wood lids and replace them with a piece of buffalo board that I cut a 1 x 1 inch square off one outside edge.  I then wrap with that silver bubble-wrap insulation designed for water heaters and cut a hole that matches the one in the buffalo board.  I make sure it's long enough so when I fold it over the top of the hives, it completely covers 4 hives that are butted against one another.  I tie it up with a cord so even the wrap is a tad leaky.   If they are getting wet, maybe your lower (or upper?) entrance should be larger?

i do have a bottom entrance and top entrance.  i just think moisture boards are not a good choice in extreme winters or for more northern climates. 
it may work for you? not sure?
Chip

Offline Green bee

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2016, 07:47:36 pm »
So I was reading through the thread and thought I would ask if anyone has ever tried a vapor barrier between the ground and the hive? My thought is (and it just a thought ) the only way moister could get inside the hive is in the air. Now a lot of moister would come from evaporation from the ground and enter the hive. If you had something to put between the ground and the hive that would extend out 3or 4 ft around the hive it would have to help. Just an idea :)
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein

Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2016, 09:29:19 pm »
Well, I guess I messed up my post in response to Riverbee!  I guess the thing to say now is that I may be slow but my work is poor ;D  Anyway, I've had great luck with moisture boards and I generally follow what the University of MN does for the bees they winter in St. Paul.  My suggestion is to leave a larger opening up top to better vent carbon dioxide and water vapor; increase the size of the bottom opening, if that doesn't solve the problem.  If the buffalo board gets so much moisture that it weeps ice water back on the bees, you aren't getting enough ventilation.  I wrap 4 hives butted together as a unit (to reduce surface area for heat loss) and I remove the lids entirely and lightly tack buffalo board in pace where the lid was located.  I then wrap the whole thing in the silver bubble wrap they use for water heaters.  I cut it long so I can fold it over the top of the 4 hives like you would wrap a present and then tie it in place with a cord.  That configuration also allows for the escape of additional gases and water vapor.   I winter outside and my success rate is nearly 100%.  Never had a moisture problem.
Chip

Offline riverbee

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2016, 01:13:41 am »
yes you did chip!.....lol!........that's alright...........

i do have a large opening at the top, probably about 3 " or so?  and entrance reducer at widest opening or left totally off.  i cut all my inner covers with a wider opening, about 3 inches and left that way year round.  i just found, for me, the moisture boards didn't work. i have yet to have a moisture problem since ditching the build rite and going with the pink stuff!

btw chip, the u of m really doesn't overwinter any bees......... don't get me started............. ;D
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Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2016, 08:14:32 am »
After reading Chip and river's conversation about moisture boards, I am starting to wonder if this is going to work.  This is the configuration I am using:  Shims with a small entrance are on top of the top brood box.  Moisture board is resting on the shim and telescoping lid is on the top.  The inner cover is removed.  I have wind breaks in place.  The shims were intended for additional air movement and so that I can put sugar bricks in place.

Any thoughts? There are usually moments, in this part of the country, when one could swap out the moisture board for the inner cover in need be.

Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2016, 02:59:43 pm »
I thought Marla and Gary wintered in 3 deeps.  The recipe for buffalo board from Gary so maybe it was his own bees.  Where does the U of M winter? ;D
Chip

Offline riverbee

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2016, 02:47:25 am »
"after reading Chip and river's conversation about moisture boards, I am starting to wonder if this is going to work.  This is the configuration I am using:  Shims with a small entrance are on top of the top brood box.  Moisture board is resting on the shim and telescoping lid is on the top.  The inner cover is removed.  I have wind breaks in place.  The shims were intended for additional air movement and so that I can put sugar bricks in place.

Any thoughts? There are usually moments, in this part of the country, when one could swap out the moisture board for the inner cover in need be."


bakers it's all about what works for you! moisture boards work for chip, for me i don't care for using them.

okay so, shim with a small entrance, moisture board on top, telescoping lid. no inner cover. why remove the inner cover bakers?
i think shims are great!

"I thought Marla and Gary wintered in 3 deeps.  The recipe for buffalo board from Gary so maybe it was his own bees.  Where does the U of M winter? ;D"

chip..........it is what they teach; managing and overwintering in 3 deeps and using buffalo board...........the u of m overwintering bees?.........they don't.  ;D
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Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2016, 03:09:21 am »
"


okay so, shim with a small entrance, moisture board on top, telescoping lid. no inner cover. why remove the inner cover bakers?

I gosh river!  Because you said that, I went to Mann Lake's website.  The directions say to put the moisture board on top of the inner cover.  I will correct that asap.

Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2016, 02:04:48 pm »
I'll have to talk with Marla case I'm pretty sure they told me the wintered  plus Gary has personal hives in WI. A bigger question is why it works here but not WI.  Physics and chemistry should help,,,,maybe.  When we get cold, really cold, our humidity is essentially zip so maybe a sharper gradient for movement?  Even if we iced, water would sublime to the outdoors.  Wind (which we have lots of) would enhance water loss, either from water vapor directly or sublimation from ice. Still doesn't help me understand why you don't get moisture managing the same without the moisture boards.  Perhaps those Russian bees are more active under your insulation regime and reuse that respiration water?  I use minimal insulation and about a 1/2 x 1 inch opening top and bottom.   I could use thicker insulation but my main concern would be that more active clusters would consume too much food in our long winters.

A big enigma and one that drive this old mans curiosity but it's been that way since I was a young man!  Hard to get the scientist side of me to shut down and I've been retired for nearly 3 years😀
Chip

Offline neillsayers

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2016, 10:19:48 pm »
So I was reading through the thread and thought I would ask if anyone has ever tried a vapor barrier between the ground and the hive? My thought is (and it just a thought ) the only way moister could get inside the hive is in the air. Now a lot of moister would come from evaporation from the ground and enter the hive. If you had something to put between the ground and the hive that would extend out 3or 4 ft around the hive it would have to help. Just an idea :)
GB, As I understand it, the moisture in the hive is the result of consuming honey stores. The bees are trapped in cluster and moisture from metabolizing honey is released as vapor in the warm air in the cluster, where it rises up until it contacts the cold upper cover and condenses. Then it drips  down into the hive and causes all kinds of troubles.

Experienced beeks, please jump in if I've got this wrong.
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Offline Chip Euliss

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2016, 10:51:10 pm »
You have it right Neill.  We do it too when we breath and it comes from consuming and foods just like bees when they consume honey.  As our system uses (burns) that food (fuel), it gives off gases that exhaust from our bodies. The vapors in our breath is analagous to the exhaust from a car and it's how we get rid of carbon dioxide and excess water vapor.  Lots of different gases too but mostly carbon dioxide and water vapor.  Both need to get outside the hive but for different reasons.  Both are warm when they are released by the bees as they breathe and rise to the top of the hive. 

I don't use inner covers at all so that may also be a factor influencing the differences being discussed.
Chip

Offline Bakersdozen

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Re: Moisture Boards
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2016, 05:51:49 am »
I found a moment of sunny weather in the upper 50s yesterday afternoon.  So, I ran out and fixed the configuration of the moisture boards.  I replaced the inner covers and put the moisture boards on top.  The telescoping covers are on top of all with bricks in place.  The Carnolians, which were in the shade at this time, complained by buzzing my head briefly.  They were also trying to chew holes in the moisture board.
Only one hive was hanging out in the center of the brood boxes.  The other colonies were at the top.  So, if that means what I think it means I had better get some sugar cakes on.  No colonies were clustered at that point.