10 frame to 9 frame.

[Perry]

I am going from 10 frame in all my honey supers to 9 frame to ease uncapping.
I have everything with drawn comb out there in use and am now starting to use new frames with foundation. I know that I need to use 10 frames in these, but where I run excluders, should I put the excluder between the new foundation and the honey supers above it till they have some comb drawn out?

Honey
Honey
-------excluder
Foundation
Deep
Deep

[Chip Euliss]

Perry, for the past great number of years, I've just inserted foundation frames in the #3  and #7 position in 9-frame honey supers; I only put in 10 frames when I'm out of good comb.  I do crowd those frame positions with frames 2 and 4, and 6 and 8, respectively; consequently my frame spacing isn't equal when I'm drawing comb that way but you just get some frames that are "thicker" with capped honey than others but that isn't a problem.  Maybe, it's the intensity of our flow here but the bees draw out the comb just like they do when I have 10 frames in a box.  If I'm drawing out complete boxes of foundation, I bottom super so the foundation box sits as close to the brood nest as well.  I do use waxed foundation but I've used unwaxed in the past with the same result.  I think the trick is to put them on a hot brood nest,

[Chip Euliss]

I have a friend in MB who puts a super below the excluder and he runs singles.  His objective is to increase the hive population.  Once they are filled with brood, he shakes the queen back into the single and puts the excluder on and the honey super (now with brood) above it.  Once the brood hatches, the cells get backfilled with honey and he has a stronger work force.  I only use excluders when I'm running singles so you may not get much or any brood in the configuration you're considering anyway.  The excluder will impair the process of drawing out entire boxes of foundation so I think your plan will work.

[iddee]

OK, tell me what I' missing. I would think you could put it anywhere above the excluder and a honey super.

Like......

anything above this.
foundation
honey
excluder
deep
deep

They are traveling through the excluder now, so why would a super of foundation above the honey change their routine?
I would think putting a super of brood and eggs above the excluder could result in queen cells and a two queen colony, with the new queen laying in several honey supers.

[Chip Euliss]

I think the absence of cells for the fellow in MB has to do with the open communication the excluder provides.  If he put it above a double screen that kept the workers apart, I could see why they might make cells.  My friend who raises cells for a living uses such a system for his cell builders.  There's a queen in the bottom box but the bees in the top box behave like they are queenless; he moves brood up as needed.  Once he shuts them down for the season, he just pulls the double screen and the hive halves are rejoined and there are no fights because the smell hasn't changed.  The big difference is that bees in both boxes exchange food, queen substance, etc. when there is an excluder and they cannot when a double screen is in place, providing the distance between the 2 screens is greater than the length of a bees tongue.  When I ran singles, I would often get a queen in the top box but I never had a problem with them trying to raise a cell below the screen even though there were eggs and very young brood.  The fellow in MB has been doing as I describe for decades and his honey yields are nearly 300lbs most every year.  It seems to be getting more common each year, especially up north, where keeps winter many hives indoors and want to reduce the bulk they have to store inside.

[Mikey N.C.]

Exactly, how can I  , can you move a med. Between to 10 deep brood chambers

[Mikey N.C.]

With out excluder, was wondering if it could help them draw comb, I've got to come up with some type of solution , my bees are back filling and do I stop feeding, do I take wet  frames an freeze ( already had robbing ) thought about letting them clean and had a hole lot of second thoughts .

[Chip Euliss]

Mikey, when I ran singles and used queen excluders, it was tough to get them to draw comb on foundation above the excluder unless the flow was pretty intense.  Even then, I bottom supered so there was at least 1 box of honey above the foundation box.  When the nectar is gushing, they would draw out unwaxed foundation above the excluder without any problem.  I went fishing for 2 weeks about 10 years ago and had a yard that had lots of potential but I was out of comb.  I put 2 deeps with just foundation and I had 2 big boxes of honey when I got home--I was lucky!!  My best luck at drawing comb in supers was to place the foundation frames at the #3 and #7 position in a 10 frame box that had 9 frames.  That has been true for me (and others here in North Dakota) for singles with excluders or doubles without an excluder.  Most commercial folks do not use an excluder on doubles, especially those that only pull honey once a season.  They do get up and lay a little brood in the 3rd box but they have generally hatched and the cells are backfilled with honey by harvest time.  Every area is different but I'd think I'd toss the excluder for now and just put your foundation box on top and see what they do.  The worse that could happen is that you might get some brood in some of the frames but, if it works, you'll get some comb.  Once they draw out most of the comb, shake your bees back to the 2 lower boxes and put your excluder back on if you want.  Any brood will hatch and since the excluder is there, the queen won't lay any eggs and they will get back filled with honey when you have your next flow.  Once you get comb drawn, you can mix it up with foundation (like the #3 and #7 frames or some other combination) and get comb for honey production.  Having drawn comb next to your foundation frames will help and serves to bait them to the box to make honey, whether you use an excluder or not.  Having an excluder separate a new foundation box and the rest of the hive is doable but the bees will need a real strong flow in my opinion.

[riverbee]

"I am going from 10 frame in all my honey supers to 9 frame to ease uncapping.
I have everything with drawn comb out there in use and am now starting to use new frames with foundation. I know that I need to use 10 frames in these, but where I run excluders, should I put the excluder between the new foundation and the honey supers above it till they have some comb drawn out?
Honey
Honey
-------excluder
Foundation
Deep
Deep"

what chip said perry:
" If I'm drawing out complete boxes of foundation, I bottom super so the foundation box sits as close to the brood nest as well.  I do use waxed foundation but I've used unwaxed in the past with the same result.  I think the trick is to put them on a hot brood nest."


and leave the excluder OFF.

[Bakersdozen]

My head is starting to spin with all these scenarios!  This is what I did:
1.  All supers with drawn comb have been filled with honey and are still on hives over excluders.
2. Quickly hammered out more supers with undrawn comb.  I used foundation.
3. Place new supers under the filled existing supers on the hives.
4. All supers, including the new undrawn comb are over excluders. 
5.  I have not checked on progress yet.
6.  Received a nice rain Sunday which I think helped with nectar production as things were drying up from the heat.

I guess we will see if the bees will draw out that comb.  Any thoughts on what I will find?

[apisbees]

It all comes down to the intensity of the nectar flow. with a heavy flow and a bee population that exceeds the brood area, the bees will draw comb regardless of queen excluder position.

[tecumseh]

I pretty much run 9 frames from the bottom to the top of the stack.  most all the problems associated with using excluders can be avoided by having or producing a top entry above the excluder.  often time when I have an existing honey cap I remove this super, toss on a box of foundation (with these I do put 10 frames in the box initially) and then after about a week I drive the bees downward with smoke, remove the top two boxes and then toss on a queen excluder and then stack back on the two boxes.  I do have top entries in all of my hives.

in the commercial world I have seen 8 frames in a 10 frame box used as honey supers.  this of course gives you a very fat frame.

[Chip Euliss]

I have top entrances on all my hives.  They are reversible so I only open them to the outside when I add honey supers.  Prior to that, I orient them inwards to reduce robbing.

[riverbee]

"in the commercial world I have seen 8 frames in a 10 frame box used as honey supers.  this of course gives you a very fat frame."

this is what i use.........8 frames in a 10 frame box.....and 9 frames in the brood boxes. 

nectar flow or not.....i find the bees will draw foundation quicker with the queen excluder off, just monitor so the queen doesn't get up there.......

the earlier in the year one places foundation on for bees to draw comb the better! 

[tecumseh]

I have found riverbee that once you get bees started on a box they tend to continue the job until it is done.  an excluder or honey cap will stall the bees in this work which is why I try to not use an excluder with a box of foundation and why I find undersupering useful from time to time.

[Perry]

After consideration of much of the above, I think I will under super (nadir) with the foundation under the queen excluders in the hopes the bees will be quicker to start drawing out the new foundation. If I find the queens are trying to move up into it once they have started drawing it out I will deal with that at that point and perhaps lower the excluders to the top of the deep brood chambers.

[Barbarian]

For my honey crop, I use 9 Manley frames in a super which on my type of hive holds 11 normal super frames. To draw the foundation for the Manley frames, I start them at 10's spacing then, when drawn, change the spacing to 9's.

Since I use my supers above excluders, as a personal quirk, I use drone base foundation in my super frames.

[rober]

I use 9 frame metal spacers in all of my boxes. makes inspections easier. it also makes uncapping much much easier since they build comb out past the frame.